[CLUE-Talk] [OT] A Call to Action

[Sean LeBlanc]

On 07-13 12:18, Timothy C. Klein wrote:
> * Sean LeBlanc (seanleblanc at attbi.com) wrote:
> > On 07-12 15:43, Jed S. Baer wrote:
> > There is a line from A Clockwork Orange where the priest is arguing against
> > the treatment, and he says, "He has no real choice, has he? When a man
> > ceases to be able to choose, he ceases to be a man." I think this applies to
> > the redistribution of wealth by the iron fist of government...which is what
> > a communist or socialist system would imply. Helping out your fellow man by
> > giving to charity, etc., is an entirely good and welcome thing, WHEN DONE
> > VOLUNTARILY. I do not think forcing people to hand over their hard-earned
> > wealth to those who allegedly "need" it is any kind of wholesome goodness,
> > and I don't think it raises the level of human existence to any kind of
> > higher plane. 
> > 
> > I actually think it can and does work on the micro level, however. It's just
> > not for everyone, believe me. It is hard work, especially if it's a
> > farm-based commune. And then there is the human element if there is little
> > real leadership - you'll have an uphill battle against the leeches without
> > it.
> > 
> 
> I have not followed this whole thread, but there is one thing I find
> interesting here.  The first is that much of the generations that lived
> under the Communist "threat" (I don't like that word, but can't think of
> a better one) equate Socialism with Soviet Communism, and both with bad,
> evil, whatever.  And then, by some logic, Capitalism is pureness and good.  

Well, for one, I believe the Soviets were Communists in name only. That is,
Communism never existed in the U.S.S.R. If you have something such as the
politburo (sp?), then you can't really be practicing Communism. 

Note: I think the term "capitalism" is one that Marx coined. I could be
wrong, but in any case, I use the term "free market", since the term
"capitalism" is often used as a pejorative. Let's just say it's Libertarian
political correctness. :)

I do not think the free market, especially unchecked, represents all that is
good and pure. However, given the factors that human nature bring to bear on
things, it is the best system that we as humans have been able to make work
on grand scales(national). I won't deny there are massive failings in the
free market, especially when agencies like the SEC fail to do their job. In
order for contracts to work, they have to be enforceable, and there are many
contracts in place in the free market. In any case, until (and if) humans
ever evolve into better human beings like on Star Trek (many socialist
themes there - no religion, no currency, ooh, what subversion. :)), the free
market will be the ticket, IMHO.

> I have some problems with this thinking.  First, the Soviets ended up
> an example of tyranny more than anything else.  It is wrong to equate
> the entire idea of socialism/communism with "evil."  There are
> certainly downsides, and as a whole the system may even be entirely
> un-implementable (or at least non-scalable).  But automatically
> categorizing socialism as a bad thing because we were scared of the
> Soviet Union is a harmful, knee-jerk reaction.

Yes, it is. However, on the national levels, it has a horrendous track
record. Abysmal, actually. I personally don't think that socialism/communism
is an "evil" idea - but the ways in which it has been implemented in some
countries has been absolutely abhorrent. As I mentioned before, it HAS been
and continues to be used in some capacity at the smaller level. The best
thing is, the folks participating at the micro level have a say in whether
they continue to participate or not. Those who are in socialist countries
don't necessarily have that option, unless they flee the country. That's why
folks are coming to the U.S. from Cuba on rafts. I don't see the reverse, so
that's a very strong indicator to me which is a better country and system
for human rights and freedoms.

> The second is about the capitalism part.  I really hate the way
> capitalism became the White Knight that killed the evil Soviet Empire.
> Capitalism is the best economic system we seem to have come up with to
> date, but it is no peach.  There are a heck of a lot of problems in a
> capitalistic society.  But there are a frightening number of people who
> equate any questioning of capitalism as sign that you are an "evil
> socialist."  Bad juju.  The values in of human rights, freedom, etc,
> *those* are the things that count.  Our economic system should fit
> within those value, but it is in *NO* way *the* value system.

Yes, and the free market is the best path to that freedom, at least right
now. I think discussion is good, but everytime someone blames the failings
of socialism in Cuba, the U.S.S.R, portions of Europe, etc. on the United
States, I'm a wee bit skeptical. Where are human rights and/or freedom being
trampled by the free market? I'm not being facetious, I'd really like to
know.

I think the U.S.S.R. was doomed to failure, regardless of what the U.S. was
doing - we just probably sped up the process. I remember a quote from those
who lived through that: "We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us."
How is that going to work for the long term, not even taking into account
any outside forces?

> Actually, that thinking is exactly the method that Microsoft is using to
> try and scare Politicians away from Linux: "Linux is a 'socialistic'
> thing, Mr. Congressmen.  That's right.  It is just as bad as Godless
> Communism.  On the other hand, sir, us folks in Redmond are wholesome,
> God-Fearing Christian Capitalists."  OK, that is a bit severe, they
> don't actually say that, I bet.  But they are playing on that type of
> sentiment.  Which is odd, because if you look at it, Microsoft is in
> many ways diametrically opposite of freedom, while Linux is a lot closer
> to it.

Well, Microsoft's argument is really flawed in that case. Linux is not
really a socialist thing, it's more of an altruistic one. And Microsoft is
only a monopoly as long as companies that do business with them choose to be
involved with them. There are choices - if a company chooses to go with M$,
no one forced them to. Not only that, I doubt socialism carries the same
connotation of "evil" for the greater population that it did years ago.

> And the totally ironic thing is that, so far, GNU and Linux are examples
> of a non-Capitalistic system that has worked extraordinarily well, at
> least so far.

I tend to disagree here. Redhat and others are making money in the free
market with such efforts. Not only that, there is no coercion of any outside
entity on the developers...they are free to leave any project at any
time...very much like a company. Now, it *may* be similar on the micro
level. 

On the whole communism vs. socialism thing, I worked with a card-carrying
member of the Communist Party when I was in Gunbarrel a few years back - he
and I would often talk at length about politics and such, and he was very
educated on the differences between socialism and communism, and he told
many to me, most of which I forgot. In any case, he said that communism
can/should be practiced at the company level.  Each member gets a share of
the profits, and each member votes on actions and direction for the company.
Linux and OSS IS a bit like this, so I guess your (and others') comparison
has merit.


=================
Anyway, Matt sure triggered quite the discussion here, and I'm sure I've
driven it way off topic with some of my anecdotes from my early experiences
with food co-ops, yurts, vegetarianism...

I want to wish Matt good luck with his venture. I may even drop into the
list to lurk on the discussion there. I just wanted to throw a few caveats
out there for those who may have certain notions about the road less
travelled. Apparently Matt is not one of those who are uninitiated to such
things, so I'm sure he knows what he's getting into.

-- 
Sean LeBlanc:seanleblanc at bigfoot.com  
NOTE: My ISP will be changing soon. Please use bigfoot.com.
Among my most prized possessions are words that I have never spoken. 
-Orson Rega Card