[CLUE-Talk] Re: A Call to Action

[Jed S. Baer]

On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:46:15 -0600
Jeffery Cann <fabian at jefferycann.com> wrote:

> On Monday 15 July 2002 06:10 pm, Matt Gushee wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 05:33:32PM -0600, Jeffery Cann wrote:
> > > On Monday 15 July 2002 01:35 am, Matt Gushee wrote:
> > > > > Unfortunately, these experiments have mostly been flawed.
> > > >
> > > > In what way? How do you know?
> > >
> > > Well, how about communism?  Surely, it is hard to argue that its
> > > implementation in USSR was successful.
> >
> > Jeff, Jeff, Jeff ... get a grip. I'm not talking about communism. You
> > are.
> 
> I have a 'grip' -- I was responding to your question of the previous
> poster's assertion - that these 'experiments have been mostly flawed'. 
> I attempted to address your general sentiment as expressed in the
> following paragraph (quoted from your post that started this thread):
> 
> "As America's economic malaise drags on with no end in sight, it is
> becoming increasingly apparent that our traditional economic
> institutions are not going to help us out of this mess. Indeed, they
> have no intention of doing so: political and corporate leaders are far
> too busy trying to save themselves and their nest eggs to worry about
> anyone else. In short, THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN."

Oh, I'm too tired to worry about useful snipping. It seams most people
automatically assume communism when people talk about alternatives to the
"current system". In context, it looks as if various comments have sorta
gotten mushed together.

But, communal living isn't communism or socialism. Neither is a LETS.

> So, I respond in a discussion about your unsubstantiated assertion that
> THE SYSTEM, i.e., capitalism, IS BROKEN.  If you wish to discuss how the
> system is broken and how you wish to fix it fine.  It is not clear to me
> that this is your goal.

I suppose it depends upon your definition of broken, and if it is, why.
Various things are currently "broken" for me. Does that mean the system is
broken, or just that I don't interact well with it anymore? Would I be
better off under a different system? In the large picture, no, I don't
think so. Would I be better of if certain aspects of the current system
were changed? You bet I would.

Is capitalism broken when it allows Enron/Worldcom/Qwest type shenanigans?
I think so. But is that really an indictment of capitalism, as a system,
or merely certain aspects of it, such as a lack of accountability, which
is perhaps, in some cases, related to shareholders being kept in the dark?
But even there, is that more a problem with the system, or just certain
people who have gotten into powerful positions? So, if it's a problem with
unscrupulous people/auditors, then won't those same sort of people work to
undermine a LETS? Is that dependent upon scale?

> My point is that capitalism is the best system within the poor context
> of human nature.  So, any system -- capitalism or whatever -- will never
> fair well enough to avoid criticism by individuals.  That's what makes
> the debate interesting -- no human is perfect.  Thus, no system
> implemented by humans will be perfect either.  For example, I'm sure you
> would agree that other individuals in other countries (with different
> economic systems) believe that their SYSTEM IS BROKEN as much as you do
> ours.
> 
> If you want to improve capitalism while working within its bounds, then
> I did misunderstand your point and I do apologize.  Maybe I
> misunderstood this paragraph above.  It certainly is likely given that
> email is such a bad format for debate.

As an example of a "velocity of currency (or capital)" question, what
would be the result for Colorado's economy if everyone who has a mortgage
made certain their mortgage lender was headquartered in Colorado, and
those institutions made local financial dealings a priority as well. Would
our local economy improve? I think this is what's fundamentally behind
LETS.

I can't really speak to the economy of CSAs, but I was going to find out
what a package of carrot seeds cost, vs. a bunch in the grocery store.
However, various other things have gotten my attention today. Like some of
the strange behaviours of Galeon 1.2.5.

Later,
jed

-- 
We're frogs who are getting boiled in a pot full of single-character
morphemes, and we don't notice. - Larry Wall; Perl6, Apocalypse 5