[CLUE-Talk] Sure its 'Not About Oil' was: Why Iraq? Why now?

[Dave Price]

Well stated on both sides ... I choose not to take one, yet.  Listen
first, then act.

aloha,
dave

On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 08:28:59PM -0700, Randy Arabie wrote:
> On Tuesday,  4 February 2003 at 19:09:08 -0700, Jeffery Cann <fabian at jefferycann.com> wrote:
> > On Monday 03 February 2003 07:29 pm, Randy Arabie wrote:
> > > And those points were exactly the ones that I hoped you would elaborate
> > > upon.  Please address the "meat & potatoes".
> > 
> > Randy,
> > 
> > Fundamentally, I don't agree with his (or the general) premise to use violence 
> > / war to end the real (or perceived) thread of Saddam Hussein.
> > 
> > I agree that Hussein is not a good guy and he probably does not have good 
> > intentions with respect to WMD.  For his abuses of his countrymen, Iranians, 
> > and Kuwaitis, he should be punished.  But, I don't think he should be killed 
> > as punishment because that would violate my belief in the sanctity of human 
> > life.
> >
> > To me, any human life is valuable and I believe a person never loses their 
> > human rights, such as the right to live - regardless of what they do or how 
> > badly they may act.   Since Saddam has clearly abused the rights of others, 
> > his privileges (which are different than his human rights) in society should 
> > be revoked as punishment - e.g., life in prison.
> 
> Am I correct in assuming that you are pacifist?  That is my conclusion.  It 
> sounds to me that, in your opinion, war is _never_ justified because it would 
> violate the enemies right to live.
> 
> > I do not trust nor defend Saddam Hussein; however, I think as the most 
> > powerful country in the world, we can surely figure out another way to bring 
> > him to justice besides a war.  There will be too many innocent people killed 
> > in a war and the removal of Saddam never justifies the killing of anyone. 
> 
> Had you been alive, would you have been equally opposed to war against
> Hitler?  I _DO_NOT_ mean that to equate Saddam Hussein with Hitler.  I am
> simply trying to find the point at which you would concede that war and
> the associated "collateral damage" (i.e. the death of innocent civilians, 
> enemy and allied soldiers, etc.) would be justified to stop an evil 
> dictator.
>  
> > Often, people choose violence when the believe it to be the last resort.  It 
> > seems that many people believe that the conflict would be resolved if Saddam 
> > were simply killed.  I don't think it's quite that simple.  For example, what 
> > happens to Iraq afterwards.  Imagine what would happen in the US, if our 
> > government were disbanded forcefully by another country.
> 
> I contend that that is excatly what al Qaeda had in mind when they flew
> jumbo jets into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and attempted to
> fly one into either the White House or the Capitol building. Hence our 
> current "War on Terrorism".  While al Qaeda is not another country, their 
> intention was to destroy America.  I think our response has been appropriate.
> 
> Imagine what would have happened on December 7th, 1941 if FDR had been a
> pacifist and refused to go to war against the Axis Powers because it
> would have violated their right to live.
> 
> > Finally, I disagree that we need to 'bring democracy' to Iraq.  I think 
> > deposing Saddam would be a good start, but then we should let the Iraqis 
> > decide what form their government may take.  Our goal would only be to 
> > prevent another brutal dictator like Saddam and keep the peace until a stable 
> > and respectable government can form.  
> 
> I don't think that is too far off from what has been proposed.  As the essay
> pointed out, we were quite successfull in Germany and Japan.  The
> current Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz plan calls for a US Military occupying force
> to "keep the peace until a stable and respectable government can form."
> (your words, that was not quoted from Rumsfeld or Wolfowitze)
> Powell and the State Department are more in favor of a UN Nation
> Building operation.
>  
> > It's ironic to me that Americans will go to great lengths to avoid being told 
> > what to do or how to live their lives, yet find it so easy to tell others 
> > what to do.  Perhaps the culture of Iraq does not support democracy.  Perhaps 
> > it does.  But, we have no right to force our beliefs or form of government on 
> > another sovergn nation - even if it happens to have one of the worst leaders 
> > in recent history.
> > 
> > So, when I read an essay that tries to justify war to resolve the conflict 
> > with Saddam, I just can't agree.  None of the points in the essay (or any 
> > point that anyone has yet told me) will sway my belief.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your point of view.  I strongly disagree, but
> certainly respect your right to believe as you do.  That right, among
> others, is bestowed to you by God.  And, it has been paid for in 
> blood by the men and women of the US Armed Forces.
> -- 
> Allons Rouler!
>         
> Randy
> http://www.arabie.org/