[clue-talk] How do CLUEbies vote?

[David L. Willson]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:41:10 -0600, Sean LeBlanc wrote
> On 09-23 22:19, David L. Willson wrote:
> > On Sun, 2007-09-23 at 17:40 -0600, Sean LeBlanc wrote:
> > ...
> > > I'm curious - how is moveon.org worse than lying our way into war? Who is
> > > really playing politics with lives of soldiers - a group who criticizes how
> > > a war is run, or the group that put the soldiers in harm's way for a lie?
> > > Well, many lies, but who's counting?
> > 
> > I'm counting.  This is the N'th time that someone has accused GWB of
> > lying us into this war, and AFAIK there is no proof.  Last several times
> > I accused anyone of lying, I had proof.
> 
> [deleted unnecessary reference to Clinton...we're talking about Bush here]
> 
> So you deny the goalposts on why we went to Iraq were moved? Did we find
> WMD? Was there a believable al-Qaeda connection *before* we invaded? Why did
> Bush's administration go so far as to commit treason (outing a CIA agent for
> political payback) when someone pointed out that the yellowcake story was
> bunk?
> 
> Here's how I remember the goalposts being moved:
> 
> 1. We are going there to get al-Qaeda.
> 2. No, wait, we are going there to rid ourselves of a WMD threat.
> 
> 3. Ooops, we meant that we are bringing and Freedom and Democracy (tm) to the Iraqis.
> ...
> I admit it, I fell for it all in the beginning. When the shock and awe began
> and I saw how slick the media presentation was (full animations being shown
> that probably came straight from Pentagon and/or their contractors) I began
> to feel shades of Desert Storm I and realized I had been duped...again. And
> being intellectually honest, I had to realize I was wrong about Iraq and
> Saddam.
> 
> And as for Clinton...sorry, I can't help myself - are you really arguing for
> a moral equivalence between lying about sex (yes it was sex) with an intern,
> even under oath, and lying about possibly the most important decision a
> president can make - declaring war on a country? And killing at least
> thousands in the process?

I'm still not sure you've convicted the President of lying.  That's "lying".  Let's
check one of your own goalposts, for example:  Did you ever believe that Iraq ~might~
have WMD, and that the UN couldn't do squat about it?  You yourself said you were bought
in, so I'll presume the answer is yes.  Then, unless the President is assumed to be
omniscient, prescient, or significantly brighter than you and I, (which is impossible)
he might have been telling the truth when he said that very thing, that Iraq ~might~
have WMD, and that the UN couldn't do squat about it.  We were all wrong, you, me, and
GWB, but that doesn't make us liars.  No, I'm not equating.  Clinton molested an intern.
 Bush did what I might have done in his position, he placed a bet.  He lost the bet, and
we are disappointed, and having to make the best of a bad situation.  Once and for all,
call a spade a spade, but know a spade from a club.  GWB is a poor military leader, but
he's not necessarily a liar.

[...]

Sean, you're right in everything else you said.  Those issues are used by politicians to
manipulate voters, and then the politicians don't actually follow through.  Fair enough,
but what is a voter like me to do, drop my biggest issue?  I'd give up my next year's
income to save one person from living with the guilt that so many people can never be
rid of, I'd give up another year to see a kid, instead of being destroyed, get out of
his mother's womb, get his chance to breathe, run, and try to make friends.  I'd give
anything to take back a choice I made years ago, but since I can't do that, I'll vote
every vote I have in me to change the picture as much as I can.  It's too easy for a
desperate and scared kid to think it's OK, or maybe it's OK, or maybe it doesn't really
matter...  When you're desperate and scared you can tell yourself that it's just a
simple, safe, medical procedure, and you can stop yourself from thinking about the other
person, the one you just made, who is about to die.  It's not OK to choose abortion, but
we can't teach kids that, because if we admit that it's not OK, we might lose the right
to an abortion.  Pregnancy is temporary, abortion is permanent.  You don't get another
chance to raise that baby, or at least to let it live.  And last, there is some hope for
an honest politician; you may remember that GWB ~did~ do everything he could to fix this
issue.  On this, he followed through, or tried to; our other elected officials stopped
him.  So, in this case, I lose, but I wasn't manipulated.  Nonetheless, better that I
should vote my conscience, as the saying goes, at the risk of being manipulated, than
give up and vote on insignificant things while the killing continues.