[clue-talk] How do CLUEbies vote?

[David L. Willson]

> Well, I've really been trying to stay out of this, but ...
> 
> Just how genuine would one's faith/belief be, if arrived at solely by
> economic analysis? IIRC, the Bible imputes a measure of blessing upon
> faith arrived at by fear of damnation, but fear of damnation requires the
> precondition of believing in some manner of deity, and the existence of
> hell. Isn't faith in the Biblical Triune God supposed to be a matter of
> the heart, and not the head? How will Jehovah judge a "faith" which is
> arrived at by risk analysis. Such a faith, if one can even call it that,
> seems to me quite far removed from the sort of faith described in the
> Bible.

Is avoiding Hell the only reason you see to place faith in Jesus?  I
don't think you can do it, in that case.  It would amount to believing
in the God of spiritual blackmail.

Let me suggest that you look at him again, and see if there isn't a
better reason to believe in him.  Don't you see something heroic,
involved, and admirable about him?

> Now, before you answer that how the almighty will judge the quality of
> one's faith is something we don't know, i.e. a mystery, recall Mark
> 16:16, "... he that believeth not shall be condemned." Seems pretty clear
> to me, with no variance among various translations which would indicate
> room for misunderstanding, that I know of.

That's out of context.  v.15 directs the disciples to preach the gospel
to every creature, THEN v.16 says those who believe will be saved and
those who do not will be condemned.  The principle is that each of us is
judged by our response to the truth to which we are exposed.  Seems fair
to me.

For what it's worth, Mark probably didn't write verses 9 onward.  Check
out www.bible.org for more information.

> And, as long as I'm writing on the subject, what is the fate of the souls
> of the aborted, miscarried, and stillborn? After all, they were conceived
> in sin, and thus bear the guilt of orginal sin. Without the means of
> grace, how can they come to faith, and thus secure salvation? I posed
> just this question to my Pastor, many years ago. His reply was that while
> God limits we humans to the means of grace, he does limit himself. Oh,
> then there are other means of attaining heaven? Do tell. So is Mark right
> or wrong? If he's wrong, then scripture is not always truth.

1. Scripture is not always precise and consistent.  It's OK; this is the
history of the relationship between God and man, not a computer program
or lab notes.
1a. No two witnesses of a given complex event will give the same exact
account thereof.  If they do, something's amiss.
1b. Details of translation.  "Thou shalt not kill" sb "Thou shalt not
murder"
1c. Differences of expression.  "Jesus was in Littleton." or "Jesus was
in Denver."
1d. Copy/edit differences.  Slight differences in our best source
manuscripts.  We don't have the original letters, but translations of
copies of copies of the original letters.

2. Scripture is not always literal. That's OK, too.  Jesus taught very
effectively using parables, and it is relatively easy to tell where
language is figurative, prophetic, or otherwise not meant literally.

3. Scripture is not always a spiritual prescription or prohibition.
Some statements in the bible deal with culture issues we don't have.
Slavery is practically non-existent in our culture, but was discussed
quite a bit in the bible.  Women in church leadership was a terrible
distraction in the old days, but today, it's routine, and we safely
ignore the proscription against it.

John MacArthur is ~great~ at interpreting the Bible, and has written a
book for those concerned about the fate of innocent children.
http://www.challies.com/archives/book-reviews/book-review-saf.php

I don't personally ascribe to the doctrine of Original Sin, in any case,
so for me, it's simply, no sin = perfection = straight [back] to Heaven.
Moreover, I never worry about Heaven OR Hell, although I acknowledge
them doctrinally, they have nothing to do with why I believe in Jesus.

> If we assume, for the sake of argument, that every human is endowed with
> an immortal soul upon conception, then there have been a Saganesque
> quantity of souls "conceived in iniquity", and therefore condemned to
> hell, who have never had the opportunity of attaining salvation by the
> means of grace, i.e the word and sacraments. This is true even of many
> people who have been born and lived long lives.

OK, this is entirely academic, because it deals with original sin,
Heaven, and Hell, and I've already said I don't care about them, ~but~ I
take it on faith that God has got some fair way of dealing with those
people that manage to complete their earthly circuit without ever being
exposed to the good news.  What do I mean when I say "take it on faith"?
I mean that I've checked a ~mess~ of the rafters and beams in God's
house and found them sturdy.  I've replaced one or two with rafters of
my own design, to increase my range of motion, and I've hurt myself and
those I love thereby.  Because of these experiences, I trust God on a
few things that I can't speak directly to.

What really matters (to me) is the earthly benefit that is lost to those
people.

> I, for one, cannot have faith in a god who would condemn a soul merely
> for ignorance. OTOH, if Jehovah does not do this, then faith in Christ
> isn't the only way. If the latter, then the inerrancy of the Bible is at
> best, in question.

Right, or maybe right, or ... Let me ask you a question: If I offer to
let everyone live in my house, rent free, are you going to give me Hell
because I invited you, and I told you to extend the invitation to
everyone else, and you think some folks are going to get missed?  Whose
house is this?  Yours?  Let's keep the relationship straight:  God
created us.  We buggered the relationship and went our own way.  He sent
his son to make a bridge with his body and with his teaching.  You cross
the bridge, or you don't.  Pascal crossed.  J.R.R. Tolkien crossed.
C.S. Lewis crossed.  Lee Strobel crossed.  A bunch of poor people
crossed with lots of singing and clapping.  But you're standing to the
side, saying, "What about the people who are entirely ignorant of this
bridge?"  C.S. Lewis would say, "I'm writing as fast as I can."  The
rest would say, "We're doing our part."  God might say, "My house, my
rules.  You do your best, and leave the rest to me.  I notice you're
still not over the bridge in front of ~you~."

With regard to the inerrancy of scripture, see the above remarks.  It's
perfect, it's just not ~mechanically~ perfect.

> Yours in Pasta,

I'm beginning to think you didn't ask in sincerity...  :-)

> jed
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