<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Sep 30, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Michael Fierro wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">On Sat, Sep 29, 2007 at 12:04:40PM -0600, Kevin Cullis wrote:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">So here's where there are some issues that need to be determined.</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">First issue: is there a heaven?</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">No, I don't think that there is. But on the flip side, I don't believe in a</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">hell, either.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>That is your belief and I respect that you have that belief. Will I come haunt, brow beat, stalk, or otherwise harass you into believing what the Bible states, no, I'm too polite to do that. But I will continue to reason with you why your perspective has errors in it while examining my own to ensure I am accurate.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Third<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>issue: if there is a heaven, then what?</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Then a lot of people will be very surprised.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>And hence the discussion at hand. Your assumptions from your comments are that you HOPE there is no heaven, but if there is a heaven you're going there because you believe that you are a good person? At least that's the way you come across. Am I correct in your position? If this is your position, then why are you risking your beliefs on a potentially incorrect fact? Have you read any books about the Near Death Experience that kids have that have not been polluted by todays religious issues? Interesting read.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">lived that chose the wrong religion to get into heaven. I don't agree <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">with the "we will pay for our beliefs" bit. If the atheists are <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">right, there'll be nothing to pay. Once a person dies, they are dead, <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">that's it."</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Michael, you just stated that you don't agree that "we pay for our <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">beliefs" and in the previous sentence you said "then it'll be a <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">surprise," do you see your disconnect here? Everyone has to face <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Nope, I don't see any disconnect there. I stated what I believe. I don't</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">believe that the concept of having to pay for one's belief is true. If I'm</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">wrong, then I'll be surprised. But if my assumption that the sun is going to</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">rise in the east and set in the west every day ever turns out to be wrong,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I'll be surprised.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Maybe I'm being misunderstood. By "pay for our beliefs" I mean that there are consequences to our decisions both good and bad, in this life and from my perspective, into the next part of my life since my soul will not die but my physical body will.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">them, just as I do. If the atheists are right, even though I believe <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">in God, and to a greater degree Jesus Christ's way of getting into <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">heaven, we both win if the atheists are right, there are no losers. <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Why are there winners and losers?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Because that is life. While not everything is about winning and losing, like eating a bowl of ice cream won't kill me, eating a large amounts may cause my health to go down, now I'm either wining or losing.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Christians become so emphatic, we don't want anyone to be losers, but <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">But that implies that you and only you are right. What do you think if a</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">member of a different denomination comes to you and says, "you've got that</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">wrong, and you're going to go to hell. Let me help you, I don't want you to</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">be a loser?"</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I have been approached and have defended myself against their errors. It's been against the churches that don't believe in "Once saved, always saved" issue.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">we convict you and that's where we go wrong, and we do. A Christian's <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">purpose is to express and explain the Bible so that you understand, <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">then let God the Holy Spirit convict you of the truthfulness of the <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Why is that their purpose? Shouldn't a Christian tend to their own spiritual</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">life and leave others alone? You know, that whole "remove the beam from your</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">eye before attending to the splinter in your neighbor's eye?"<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Oh, we all do some sort of self analysis and reflection, but then again, for those of you that open the door to discussions about our life also leads to discussions about your life. For those of you keep pointing out our bad behaviors may be very appropriate, but while ignoring where you will end up is copping out and is called projection, you don't want to face the facts of what you need to face. Am I holier that you, by no means, I'm a sinner just like you.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">you, we've done what we're suppose to do, explain until you <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">understand, but then let you or anyone else decide, not push you into <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Doesn't that also assume that one can't understand what the bible says</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">without you explaining it? Questioning someone's reading comprehension?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Oh, you most certainly can and most do have some inkling, but we don't live in a closed society where we are not influence by others at some point. I was influenced by a Jewish Rabbi about my lifestyle when I referenced "swearing" at God. He stated "don't think just language, think lifestyle" as an all encompassing approach to life.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">In the "how do I get to heaven" question, all religions say there is <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">a heaven but are not definitive as to how to get there and do not <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">That's not true. There are some that either don't believe in a heaven at all,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">or choose to focus on what is in this life, and leave questions of the</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">afterlife for others to ponder. Buddhism and Zen Buddhism focus on</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Enlightenment in this life, for example. Daoism considers everything (and</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">nothing) to be part of Dao.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I stand corrected.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Christians don't believe this either. But, you do not have to do <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">ANYTHING here on earth to get into heaven, only have a trust in <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">someone else doing something FOR you. The Jewish religion is based on <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">That doesn't make any sense, though. You could have the most evil person in</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the world, then, and that person could get into heaven simply by trusting</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">that Jesus's sacrifice will get them into heaven.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span">Yes, that is technically correct, but pure evil won't because they already are condemned because they have already rejected Jesus Christ as the Only Begotten Son of God and as the Savior. But as a perspective, think of a killer in prison that will never see freedom again. He's go nothing to lose and has lost all hope and will take others out with his death sentence. But, as long as you and I have a breath to take, there is some hope, albeit in the case of evil people, probably none because they have rejected it so often to be completely gone "over to the dark side." See Mat 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven." Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is rejection of the Holy Spirit convicting each of us of our need for Jesus Christ as Savior to our sinful nature. ALL OTHER SINS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN BY JESUS WORK ON THE CROSS!!! While as mere men we think of the quality of the sin, lesser ones and greater ones, from God's eyes a sin is a sin and no one is <B>sinless</B>, i.e. without sin. But, some are <B>sin less</B>, i.e. the NUMBER of sins they commit whether greater numbers or lesser numbers. Your sins are not the issue when you come face to face with your sinful nature. The penalty of having a sinful nature is death, but Jesus Christ paid that penalty with His life, it's up to you to see this, if you so choose to want to see it. As you have stated, you don't think you are a sinner, and that's your belief. But in Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" it stated correctly.</SPAN></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Kevin</DIV></BODY></HTML>