[clue-talk] How do CLUEbies vote?

[Nate Duehr]

David L. Willson wrote:

> I will add a third element before I conclude.  I assert that induced
> abortion's criminal quality is best revealed by the natural response of
> guilt and shame that I, and a majority of those that made the choice to
> kill, feel.  When a majority of people feel shame and guilt over an
> action, it is reasonable to assume that that action is not healthy and
> normal.

I'm not sure this part is rational.  The reason?  Shame and guilt are 
learned behaviors.  That's psycological fact.  Our studies of sociopaths 
indicate that they never learned to have these emotions, usually due to 
neglect by parents, and thus -- don't react the same way as the majority 
do when confronted with their own wants/desires.

Of course, that's not the end of the dicsussion at all.  That 
psycological fact leads to the question:

If in the future, less people are ashamed and guilty about behavior that 
past people felt more shame and guilt about... does that mean society is 
internalizing more sociopathic behavior, or is it just "changing" and 
always will?

Very difficult question.  David would like us to feel "ashamed" of 
what's happening with abortion.  But the reality is that more and more 
abortions ARE happening.  Since I've already shared that I'm a member of 
an "infertile couple", me and my spouse certainly aren't having any 
abortions, but someone is.

What is the underlying cause?  Is nature merely correcting 
overpopulation in a way we don't fully comprehend?

I can only offer a personal observation about overcrowded places that 
I've noticed.  NYC is the ultimate example:  When you crowd people into 
tiny spaces, they become very anti-social.

What I've never thought about (until just now) is whether or not that 
leads to lower birth rates (per capita) in an overpopulated area. 
Sadly, humans have a tendency to push our resources far beyond their 
limits before we or nature self-correct the situation and either we 
(being anti-social) kill each other off, or nature in some form or 
another comes along and does it.

Just a curious side-trip my mind wanted to point out.  Guilt and shame 
aren't natural human behavior, they're a reaction to stepping outside of 
a cultural norm, passed down by parents and other people we interact 
with.  In fact, some of the most liberated people (both famous and not) 
in history were utterly uninterested in ever being shamed or feeling 
guilty about things they had done.  Yet another group of fascinating 
leaders were thrust into decision-making roles and reportedly agonized 
over their own guilt and shame.  Amazing that both types are regularly 
found in the pages of history.

Perhaps that's one of the fundamental problems of these types of 
arguments.  There are people who simply can't comprehend a world view 
where one would be unashamed or not easily feel guilty about anything. 
David asking us to feel that way, might not work for some percentage of 
folks reading along, at all.  No effect whatsoever.  Whereas for another 
group, their memories of childhood "Thou shalt nots" returns, 
full-force, along with either their happy memories of that culture, or 
their pain from it.

Nate