[clue-talk] Obama, McCain, and the American flag

[Brian Gibson]

Everyone is born with the right to life.  The right to life is inalienable, in other words, it can't be forfeited even if you wanted to.  (BTW Taking your own life or sacrificing it, does not imply your forfeiture of your right to life and in fact is an exercise of the corollary of your right to die.)  Furthermore, commissions of crimes do not take away your right to life either, even if your crime is punishable by death.  Just because you can justify your killing of someone, does not take away the fact you infringed on that person's right to life because that right can't be taken away.  It is inalienable.

Ayers in all honesty can go fuck himself.  I'm not defending him.  I'm railing against the idea that a man should be held accountable for another man's actions or beliefs, when there's no documented evidence to show he validates those actions or shares in those beliefs.  You judge a man on his OWN words and his OWN actions.  There's a reason guilt by association is a fallacy and not admissible.  Being at the same place, at the same time, working on common projects, does not automatically make a strong association.  Should I be suspect because one of you committed some (computer-based) crime and we've attended Linux meetings on a regular basis and have exchanged emails on a mailing list?  Do all my friends and associates have to believe like I do?  If one of them advocate an unpopular idea or had a criminal past, does that make them any less valuable as a friend or associate in the here and now?  Do all personal relationships automatically have the same
 level of intimacy?  

You can argue character all you want.  Character is a poor predictor of future action even if it might indicate a trend.  I certainly didn't expect McCain to campaign in the fashion that he did and choose the running-mate that he did based on the what I knew of his character before.  I expected him to keep to his word, stay above board, and have Lieberman or Romney by his side.  It would be one thing if Obama and Ayers walked on the same path, it's totally a different thing if their paths simply crossed and then parted which is what seems to be the case.



----- Original Message ----
From: Nate Duehr <nate at natetech.com>
To: CLUE talk <clue-talk at cluedenver.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2008 5:09:14 PM
Subject: Re: [clue-talk] Obama, McCain, and the American flag


On Nov 2, 2008, at 4:05 PM, Brian Gibson wrote:

> Killing another is wrong period.  Whether you do it in self-defense ...

Stop there.  I do not believe you from that statement on.

Your will to survive will not allow you to be killed by another if you have the power to stop it, unless you have the willpower to believe your cause will be fulfilled by martyrdom.

You also would not stand idly by while a loved one was being killed or even harmed, either.  You'd do whatever you had to do to protect them.

If you say it's "wrong", that's horribly disrespectful of the real choice that many military people and police officers have had to make regularly, on your behalf.

Ayers could have protested the war without becoming a Communist, killing innocents, or dedicating his book on Communism to an assassin of one of our political leaders.  These acts are all separate, but cohesively show his character.

The fact that Obama would even set foot in his house, also says something about Obama's character.

This guy's actions can't be justified by just saying the above acts were just a "bad methodology".   Frankly, if you're going to continue this path of defending Ayers, your reputation's on the line.

And since you bring it up again, Obama's church and wife's beliefs are just sad, since he never intended to follow through on them.  I rate his character not as if he wanted to start a "black uprising" but instead in that he ever spent 20 years in the church and counsel of a man who did want that.  Obama should have left and not come back.  Was he supposedly sitting there in the church every Sunday disagreeing with his pastor, but unwilling to walk out?

I've had the character to walk out of a church embroiled in a stupid theological debate that ultimately tore the pastor's marriage apart... and Obama's supposedly a lot smarter and "more qualified" than I am to hold the Office of President of the United States.

--
Nate Duehr
nate at natetech.com



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