[clue-talk] saving money with Linux

[Brian Gibson]

"I cannot be held unaccountable for bashing in someone's head because I had a bad childhood."

Then why is it soldiers are unaccountable for bashing in someone's head or worse during a time of war against enemy combatants?  What about a sufferer of mental illness?  I'm not going to advocate that lawyers getting reduced sentencing for dubious reasons or creatively interpreting laws to bring charges to bear is good or bad.  It's just simply a bi-product of an adversarial justice system.

"I have seen this with my own younger sisters and to a lesser extent with my children"

This is perhaps an issue to take up with your school board. Perhaps these incidents were isolated to the few teachers you observed.  The inability to mark a student's answers as correct or incorrect would seriously hamper a teacher's ability to teach, and I have serious doubts this is widespread.  In my experience, what color ink a teacher used to mark answers was either individual preference or what was available at the time.  Seeing an X versus a check and n/m at the top of the paper with the corresponding letter grade had more of an impact on me and my parents' reaction than the color pen used.  To a colorblind student, some colors won't even matter.  

"There are absolutes, on right and wrong."  

Morality does not exist independent of the human condition.  The closest you'll get is universal consensus, but even that's unattainable.  You try getting everyone to agree on one thing.

1)  My rights end where yours begin.
2)  The ends never justify the means.

That's all well and good, and wise words to live by.  Yet, you still enjoy the benefits of a country founded, yes, on the principles of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", but also founded on squatting, fraud, deceit, conquest, and genocide.  But, I don't see many people rushing to give up any property rights to the descendants of the native people of this land.

"They should have all necessities like food shelter and medical care, and some ways of bettering themselves through education, but no luxuries, and they should work enough to pay the costs of keeping them there."

Agreed.  Rehabilitation should be a focus of prison reform.  Teach prisoners to respect other people's rights.  Teach them a marketable skill.  Provide job placement.  Have them work for their keep.  Unfortunately, people prefer to just lock them up and throw away the key.  People want prisoners punished.  The prison industrial complex would rather exploit this cheap labor force and lobbies to increase it.  Who do you think wants no-tolerance laws and mandatory sentencing more than anyone else?  Follow the money.





----- Original Message ----
From: "grant at amadensor.com" <grant at amadensor.com>
To: CLUE talk <clue-talk at cluedenver.org>
Sent: Thu, December 10, 2009 1:53:38 PM
Subject: Re: [clue-talk] saving money with Linux

> I find it odd that some supporters of individual freedom and personal
> responsibility rail against individual moral compasses.  Usually this is
> because they defer responsibility to some other authority to say what is
> right or wrong rather than determining it by personal experience and
> reflection.
>

Individual freedom requires individual responsibility for one's actions. 
I cannot be held unaccountable for bashing in someone's head because I had
a bad childhood.

>
> Show me one example where an accredited teacher is unable to tell a
> student that 0 != 1 or any other inarguable fact?  (BTW I recommend
> reading up on the history of the zero.  It's quite fascinating.)  Last I
> checked, a teacher's responsibility is to correct students' understanding.
>  Sounds to me as a veiled attack on the (public) education system.  If
> you're arguing that educators have less authority over children, that
> comes as no surprise considering that authority has been eroded by
> Think-Of-The-Children and Parents-Always-Know-Best crusaders from the left
> and right.
>

They are no longer able to say a student is wrong.   I have seen this with
my own younger sisters and to a lesser extent with my children (we live in
a rural area where this is not as common.)    2+2=5 is not wrong, it is a
"different" answer.   The teachers are not allowed to use red ink, as it
may upset some.   They are not allowed to tell the students they are
wrong, even about factual things.   I saw this first hand in a school
district in the Denver metro area.

I have read a bit about zero, and while fascinating, I really like pi better.

> "Moral relativism is destroying any chance we have or remaining a civil
> society."  Doubtful.  Moral absolutism is more authoritarian and leads to
> a black and white world.  There's no need to think because something is
> either right or wrong.  You're either with us or against us.  Boy, that
> sounds familiar; catch phrase of the decade?  With moral relativism you
> actually have to take the situation into
> account.  (But thinking is hard! /sarcasm)  Not only is the world full of
> shades of gray, but it is actually filled with a spectrum of color.
> Otherwise, it'd be a rather drab place to live in.
>

Perhaps I used the wrong term with moral relativism.   There are
absolutes, on right and wrong.   Deal with it.   Here are the two guiding
principals I use for right and wrong:

1)  My rights end where yours begin.
2)  The ends never justify the means.


> Also considering the US has the highest incarceration rate of any nation,
> I don't thing we coddle criminals.  We arguably have a policy of no
> tolerance (even for non-violent offenses that do not infringe on the
> rights of others) and a policy of paying money to keep our problems out of
> sight---five figures per inmate.  I'd even argue that we're a worse off
> civilization for it.
>

Perhaps if prison were more unpleasant we would have fewer repeat
offenders.   They sue and win over no cable TV or only crunchy peanut
butter.   We spend huge money on keeping them there.   They should have
all necessities like food shelter and medical care, and some ways of
bettering themselves through education, but no luxuries, and they should
work enough to pay the costs of keeping them there.

> Prosecuting corporations shouldn't even be possible because of the idea of
> corporate personhood is a fallacy.  However, even if you do go after
> corporate (or political) leaders, even though ideally no one is above the
> law, in actual practice, being in a position to influence/write laws or
> being an insider affords a person some privilege, except in the face of
> overwhelming public backlash.  Unfortunately, above a certain level of
> power, justice isn't all that blind, but relative to other judicial
> systems, the US is probably fairer than most.
>

Perhaps holding those in charge personally accountable for the actions of
their organizations would fix some things.   Our just system stinks, but
it is still the best one there is.


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