[clue-talk] The stimulus bill

[Sean LeBlanc]

On 02-05 23:54, Angelo Bertolli wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 11:36 PM, Jeremy Slade <jeremy at jkslade.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Sean LeBlanc wrote:
> > > On 02-05 18:32, Nate Duehr wrote:
> > >>> Obama has spent most of his adult life surrounded by socialists,
> > >>> communists, terrorists, and America haters.
> > >> Sorry, the only reaction such a statement deserves is: pfft.
> > >> ------
> > >>
> > >> And that right there (the inability to have a discussion, but to only
> > "pfft"
> > >> it) is one of the great problems in the country today.
> > >>
> > >> Talk about why you think he wouldn't be influenced by them, explain how
> > he's
> > >> stronger than any other man alive and won't fall prey to the most basic
> > of
> > >> desires to "fit in" in any way, whatever... make an argument.  Explain
> > why
> > >> every Psychology textbook is wrong when it shows that people tend to act
> > >> like those they are surrounded by.
> > >>
> > >> Make a stand as to why he's so great if you don't agree, but don't just
> > blow
> > >> off the real concerns of others with "pfft".  That's lame.
> > >
> > > Okay, if the claim was true, and he spent most of his adult life around
> > such
> > > types, okay, he could be influenced by them. I don't think even the
> > > rhetoricians that craft these memes even really mean to say that Obama
> > spent
> > > most of his life around these types, they are just playing the gotcha
> > game.
> > >
> > > But I reject the premise. And that's really what I was pffffft'ing.
> > >
> > > If there is any evidence to the contrary, I'll reconsider. None was
> > offered.
> >
> > Surely you jest?  Two very publicized instances are William Ayers and
> > Jeremiah Wright.
> >
> > William Ayers = terrorist.
> >
> > Jeremiah Wright = America hater.
> >
> > Those are not people who happened to travel in the same social circles.
> >  They are people that he actively involved in his life over the course
> > of many years.
> >
> > Don't expect that a discussion here is going to provide you with the
> > evidence you seek.  Evidence of the character of the man Obama is
> > readily available, and it's your own responsibility to avail yourself of
> > it.
> >
> 
> Wow, so first you make a statement, and then you cover yourself by saying
> there is no evidence, but it's everyone's individual responsibility to look
> stuff up and see that you are rights.
> 
> I didn't take any debate classes ever, but this sounds just a tad unfair to
> me.

Agreed. This is why I went "pfffft". Making innuendos about a person's
character based on rather tenuous associations and tarring those
associations with very fluid labels such as "communist", "socialist",
"terrorist", and "America hater" [*] doesn't really constitute something I
think needs to be discussed.  Some things deserve a good "pfffffft".  

Meh. This stuff will continue to be the rallying cry of certain people.
That NRO article I posted is one example.

If we had data to show the set of people that believe these Rovian memes and
the people that believed all the conspiracy theories about the Clintons (you
know, the alleged body counts) I bet it'd be nearly identical.

As for Obama, I have few illusions, I think. The man is a moderate, and he
ran as a moderate. He's not perfect. Just as no ideology is perfect.
Pragmatism is something we should be bringing to bear, regardless of how
politically incorrect some demagogues on the right or left find it.
Ideologies usually run into problems in the real world, whether they are
disaster capitalism or communism. Sometimes human behavior and inconvenient
facts get in the way.

If we have to engage in more "socialism", to minimize the pain, so be it.
Ideologues can complain until the cows come home that it's not politically
correct according to Saint Ronnie or Friedman, but tough. If it doesn't go
as far as some might want, or there isn't enough pork for some interests,
that's also too bad.

I suspect that, in the final analysis, he'll be just slightly to the left of
Clinton, who was ultimately the Republicans' best friend. Maybe he'll even
go out with something like a stained dress to give them something for all
their troubles and bleating about what a bad man he supposedly is over the
years.

I hope that somewhere he rolls back all of the illegal activities of the
Bush administration, though, as I said, I have few illusions. He voted for
the FISA bill.

[*] I think I could construct a good case of why I think today's modern
so-called "conservatives" are really the "America haters", for instance.

-- 
Sean LeBlanc:seanleblanc at comcast.net
http://sean-leblanc.blogspot.com
Life is like a simile.