[clue] [Politics] What is a troll ? What is trolling ?

Tue Nov 29 22:16:42 MST 2011

Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 16:57:35 -0700
From: beandaemon at gmail.com
To: clue at cluedenver.org
Subject: Re: [clue] [Politics] What is a troll ? What is trolling ?

#1   It is okay to kill people in other countries without a trial.

(morally or legally?   I would argue that it's never morally OK, but some countries do have dramatically different legal systems.  Look at this stuff going on with Norway's bomber (for example.)  Norway found him criminally insane, he'll never stand trial.  Mental hospital, re-evaluated every 3 years.

In time of war, it would be rather difficult to try enemy combatants before firing on them.
Do I have an issue with killing Bin Laden?  No.  Drug lords (who themselves probably are responsible for hundreds of deaths)? No.
But then where do you draw the line?

#2   "Bad" people or foreigners do not deserve the protection of the US legal system.

(that's kind of hard to get my head around - it really depends on how you define a bad person.  I do honestly believe that illegal immigrants should probably be tried according to the country of their laws of origin, but I don't necessarily immediately qualify them as bad people.)

Taken out of context this would appear to be advocating imposing our legal system on all counties.
You don't want to go down the path of trying people by their country of origin's laws.  Sharia law would be the best example of that.
Unless you are good with honor killing and such.

#3   If the russians build a wall it is bad...   If the US builds a wall, it is okay.

(isn't this a little cold-war esque?   I think I'm with you on this one.  It strikes me as flawed logic.

There is a difference between trying to keep people in and keep people out.
We can not have open borders and a welfare state without bankrupting our country. (Sooner that it is headed towards that is)

#4   US soldiers are heroes  .... fighters in other countries are terrorists.

(Well, that's really relative.   To me, it's one thing to participate in an organised military of an elected government and another to just pick up a gun and start shooting at people who disagree with you at the time.)

Generally our troops are trying to kill enemy combatants. Others are happy blowing up as many 'non-combatants' as possible.
Although it is getting rather difficult for our troops to tell the good guys from the bad ones.
But I would have to agree, it is a perspective thing.  And suicide bombers have families who probably think we are the bad guys.

#5   War is a glorious enterprise.

(OK, that's just....  Yea, 100% behind you on that one.   People who think war is glorious probably haven't had any exposure to it in any way.  Either that or they're just completely naive beyond all excuse.)

Aside from Hitler and a few other lunatics, do you know anyone that believes this?   I have to believe that most everyone in the military is not "pro war" but are serving their country and trying to do what is right.  I could be way off on this, but I hope not.
Generally if we are willing to commit US military forces and blood, we should try to kill the enemy as fast as possilby so that they captulate sooner and save lives on both sides.  How many Japanese lives did we save by dropping the atomic bomb?  (as apposed to months of aerial bombing followed by invasion.)  25% of the population?  More?
And from everything I have seen, NEVER get involved in a civil war.  I just never works out well.

Carl

Bean

On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Will <will.sterling at gmail.com> wrote:

Trolling is stating something that you do not believe to get a rise out of people.  For instance if I were to give a MacBook to Dave Willson and tell him he should try it out because it kicks Linux's behind.  That would be a troll because I did it for no other reason then to watching his reaction.

Your disapproval of social norms and excepted truths of the group are in no way related to trolling.  People are not saying anyone of those things to get a raise out of you.  
I think Dave calls Torren  a troll because Dave wants to give Torren a benefit of doubt and hopes he just likes to watch the e-mail list explode in activity.

On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 4:31 PM, YES NOPE9 <yes at nope9.com> wrote:

There are many times when I see conventional memes that drive me crazy......

To me that is trolling....but since these paradigms are so widely accepted ... they are allowed a pass. So I guess most people would not consider them trolling.

Some examples: