[CLUE-Talk] Religiousness of pacifism was: Sure its 'Not About Oil' ...

[Kevin Cullis]

Jeff,

On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 10:02, Jeffery Cann wrote:
> Main Entry: pac*i*fism 
> Pronunciation: 'pa-s&-"fi-z&m
>  Function: noun
>  Etymology: French pacifisme, from pacifique pacific
>  Date: 1902
>  1 : opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes;
>   specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds
>  2 : an attitude or policy of nonresistance
> 
> There are certainly differening philosophies of pacifism and non-violence and 
> so it's difficult to lump them together without misrepresentation.
> 
> Jeff

There are abolutely differing positions and degrees, from 100% pacifist
to 0% pacifist and you're somewhere in between as well as I am.  I
believe that there is a time and place for being a pacifist, but to be a
100% pacifist is difficult to achieve.  Why?  Because at some point,
someone HAS to take on the aggressor, pretty much like Zonker suggested.
If there were three people, one a pacifist, one a non-pacifist and one a
psycho, if the non-pacifist takes a bullet, then the pacifist hopes that
the psycho won't mistreat him. But, if the non-pacifist takes out the
psycho and the non-pacifist does on become a psycho him/herself, then
the pacifist wins.


> For more information about non-violence, I'll recommend the
> following:  
> writings by Muhatma Ghandi,  Martin Luther King, Jr. and the New
> Testament of 
> the Bible - specifically Jesus' teachings about peace.  Their thoughts
> led me 
> to my  beliefs on peace and justice 13 years ago.  I still hold fast
> to them 
> today.

On a religious/Christian note, most believe that the Gospels are what we
are to live today while I consider that, while we can learn from them
and apply some of what Jesus taught, there are differing aspects of the
Gospels that do not apply for us today.

Specifically, this issue is called dispensationalism. The concept begins
with the premise: are there differing periods of time in which God/man
are interacting?  Since Christians do not practice the Old Testament
ritual of sacrifices, there is now a dividing line between the OT and
the NT (See Matt 27:51 when the veil is torn in two to the Holiest of
Holies to see why).  There are numerous examples to explain here.

Since that concept is generally accepted by most Christians, the
question now is: are there more dispensations than just the two, the OT
and the NT?

This comes down to: how is a dispensation defined and where is the line
drawn? The more liberal view is that all of the NT is applicable for
today whereas the more conservative ones believe in only the Epistles
(without getting too theological here).  The premise of the more liberal
is the misunderstanding of what the Gospels are: they are the "proposal"
by Jesus of establishing His Kingdom on earth, but His Kingdom was
rejected, hence, the Gospels are not to be applied (as a general rule)
for today.

Now, here is where the pacifism comes in from the religious/Christian
perspective. When reading Matthew chapters 5-7, normally called the
Beatitudes, the tone and structure of the message is one that is more
strict law than the OT.  Matt 5: 38-39 "You have heard that is was said,
'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, do not
resist him who is evil; buth whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn
to him the other also."

Now, why does Jesus say this?  Because the applicability of justice will
be different during His physical reign on earth, i.e. better "police"
(and I use this VERY loosely here).  How is this determined?  First,
read the OT WITHOUT referencing the NT and you'll get the Jewish
perspective of prophecies of them looking for "The Christ" and the
expected establishment of His kingdom.  You'll find these in the later
part of the OT.  You find this concept of His kingdom referenced by John
the Baptist in Matt 3:2 when he states "Repent, for the kingdom of
heaven is at hand."  Jesus even states the same in Matt 4:17 "Repent,
for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."  Other references of the expected
kingdom: Matt 9:35, 11:3, 15:24, Luke 19:11, 23:51, Acts 1:4-8 (in the
Greek, the word is in the imperfect tense, they kept asking, asking,
asking!) Now also understand the most of the Jews rejected Him as their
King while a small population did not, but since most did reject Him and
history shows that the Jewish nation was conquered in 70 A.D.(which is a
judgement against the Jewish nation) the "responsibility" now is in the
hands of the Church.

When reading the OT, most of the references are what I call "trailers"
of what is to come in Jesus' kingdom whereas what Jesus teaches in the
Gospels is the "full" movie.

So, while I learn from the Gospels about human nature and certain
perspectives that Jesus taught, most of the stringent parts of a "way of
life" are what are to be future events.

Lastly, how do I know this?  Because in Revelation 20 Satan is bound
during Jesus' Kingdom and therefore we will not have NEAR the amount of
disobedience and crime because Satan will not be able to influence
people during this period and which is why you are to "turn the other
check." After Satan is loosed after the 1000 years of being bound, it
will get even worse than today.

So, the error in some/most Christian churches is applying kingdom rules
in a Church based dispensation.  Because, there will be a new "police"
and King in town during the 1000 years and little need for a large
number of "police" and therefore pacifism is the legitimate rule of life
for this period of time.

So, in a quick perspective of things to come, this is how the sequence
of events are to occur from the conservative viewpoint in which I
believe:

|--Rapture--|--7 Yrs of Tribulation--|--1000 Year Kingdom--|
(not to scale ;-) )

The Rapture is when Jesus comes for His Bride (the Church) and millions
of people will disappear and the chaos begins and there will be "peace
on earth" and with Israel until the second half of the Tributation where
it increases in magnitude and viciousness.  Then it gets even dicier
(terrible!!).  For the "source," read Revelation 4-19 in ever increasing
chaos, but for a fictional account, read the "Left Behind" series, the
books have sold millions and have been on at least 5 "Best Seller" lists
in America.

There you have it, I hope I didn't offend too many.


-- 
Kevin Cullis <kevincu at orci.com>