[clue-talk] How do CLUEbies vote?

[David L. Willson]

Michael, I'll say again that cutting away part of the sentence/thought
you are responding to is rude.  It shows respect to leave a statement
complete, in that you took the time to carefully trim away only the
unrelated material.

> I doubt it. But that's the intellectual equivalent of twiddling one's thumbs.
> Why would I sit back and spend time pretending that Revelations is 100% true,
> when it would be a lot more fun and edifying to imagine what it would be like
> if Douglas Adams Hitchhiker's Guide were true? I'd so try to make an
> electronic thumb...  

I'm with you there, but I'd want a Babel fish.

> Because it is obviously a deftly crafted mix of historical fact, tons of
> fiction, fables and parables. And bits of it are horribly dated. The whole
> "god created the world in 7 days" bit comes straight from the fact that
> people 2,000 years ago had no idea about the planet, the solar system, nor
> anything beyond that.

'obviously'?  That's odd, because I don't think I'm immune to the
obvious, and I've been testing and struggling with the Bible for ...
quite some time, and I've found it to be full of depth and meaning.
Moreover, I believe it is a literally or symbolically truthful account,
from the perspective of each of the authors.  In short, it's a document,
independently verifiable at many points, trustworthy at others, and
varied enough in the details of each account to preclude the likelihood
of fabrication.  You really ought to try some Lee Strobel, as Kevin
Cullis suggests.  I have two books by him that I'd be happy to lend.

> Of course, the whole creation thing might've also been a parable. The Adam &
> Eve thing definitely is: the moral of the story is: don't think you know more
> than you actually do, or you can get your ass kicked out of paradise. Which
> is a pretty good moral, actually.

I think the lesson was, "Do what I say." but either lesson is a good
lesson, and perhaps it was both.  Either way, there's quite a lot to be
learned in Genesis.

> I am choosing to spend my time living this life. If there's an afterlife,
> then it'll be a surprise. If there is, I'll join the 99.999% of all human
> beings who have ever lived that chose the wrong religion to get into heaven.

Your statistic is way, way off.  Do you want to go back to debating
Pascal's Wager?  Nobody responded to that post, that I saw.

> I don't agree with the "we will pay for our beliefs" bit. If the atheists are
> right, there'll be nothing to pay. Once a person dies, they are dead, that's
> it.

Oh Hell, Michael, we pay for our beliefs no matter who's 'right'.  I'm
winning this game and I'm not dead yet, and at the same time, I and my
family bear the cost every day for the things I did when I thought I was
right and God was wrong.

> Well, you can't really expect someone to do that. If I gave you a copy of the
> Dao De Ching, would you examine it for Truthfulness and compare your beliefs
> against it? Or would you say, "ah, I'm okay with being Christian, that book
> won't teach me anything?"

Want my shipping address?  I just got done with an open-minded,
open-hearted sampling of the Koran, and I'm up for something new.  Any
system of faith worth having will survive a good acid-dip.  The Bible
more often refers to testing gold in the fire, but I like acid dips.

> Or worse: "that is a book from another religion, therefore it is evil."

Anything that misleads the children is evil, and whoever knowingly or
negligently promulgates it will (I sincerely hope) be called to account.
Teachers are, and should be, more accountable.  I suppose I should keep
my mouth shut to keep my accountability low, but a boy at my son's
school just ended his own life, and that renews my belief that there is
something for Jesus to save us from, so...  I'll be damned if I'll keep
my mouth shut.  Pardon the pun.

> There is a huge difference between helping out someone that is going to
> physically die, and helping someone into a theoretical afterlife.

There is not, either.  If there is an after-life, then "wailing and
gnashing of teeth" is a decrease in the quality of after-life,
multiplied times eternity, multiplied times the likelihood that there is
an after-life....  blah blah blah.  It's incumbent on the believer to
offer an out.  You know that.

> > that use the argument of "leave them/me alone" is a cop out for not  
> > getting involved or caring.
> 
> No, it is a statement saying, "please respect my right to have different
> beliefs than you do."

And here I'm on Michael's page again.  Jesus didn't come for the
righteous.  He didn't chase people down, shouting at them about the end
times or the wailing and gnashing of teeth.  Those prods are meant to
motivate disciples and to crush God's-in-my-box church leaders.  Jesus
went places, he healed and helped people that came to him, then he
taught them various things, and then he told them "follow me".  When
people came at him with tricks or falseness, he defeated them, and
walked away.  Then they killed him.  And then he defeated them
again.  :-)

Why must Christians witness or evangelize?  Because Jesus said that they
must.  The gospels are the books named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John,
and in every one, after defeating death, Jesus commands his disciples to
spread the good news far and wide.  The account in John breaks my heart,
and inspires me.  Read enough about Luke and Jesus to know them a
little, get a feel for them, and then read the last chapter of John's
gospel.  My favorite words are "feed my lambs" but they mean nothing out
of context, and everything when you know who said them, and to whom, and
the preceding question and answer.  If reading is hard for you or
someone you know, let me know and I will read aloud.

The modern world knows his name, but they use it as a swear word rather
than to identify him.  The world knows Jesus as "something to do with
Christians", and Christians are sinners, to the very last.  An uglier
bunch of flops, you couldn't ask for, and Christians listen when their
neighbors say, "You hypocrite.  You ought to be too ashamed to talk
about Jesus.  Repentance?  The search for righteousness?  Look at
yourself!  You suck."  Well, yes, I suck.  But take a look at my hero.
Un-fallen, completely righteous, he's willing to give you the shirt off
his back, and the skin, too.  Let's follow him, as best we can, and try
to decrease our mutual suck-factor.