[clue-talk] How do CLUEbies vote?

[Kevin Cullis]

On Sep 30, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Michael Fierro wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 29, 2007 at 12:04:40PM -0600, Kevin Cullis wrote:
>
>> So here's where there are some issues that need to be determined.
>
>> First issue: is there a heaven?
>
> No, I don't think that there is. But on the flip side, I don't  
> believe in a
> hell, either.

That is your belief and I respect that you have that belief. Will I  
come haunt, brow beat, stalk, or otherwise harass you into believing  
what the Bible states, no, I'm too polite to do that.  But I will  
continue to reason with you why your perspective has errors in it  
while examining my own to ensure I am accurate.

>
>> Third  issue: if there is a heaven, then what?
>
> Then a lot of people will be very surprised.

And hence the discussion at hand. Your assumptions from your comments  
are that you HOPE there is no heaven, but if there is a heaven you're  
going there because you believe that you are a good person? At least  
that's the way you come across. Am I correct in your position? If  
this is your position, then why are you risking your beliefs on a  
potentially incorrect fact? Have you read any books about the Near  
Death Experience that kids have that have not been polluted by todays  
religious issues? Interesting read.

>
>> lived that chose the wrong religion to get into heaven. I don't agree
>> with the "we will pay for our beliefs" bit. If the atheists are
>> right, there'll be nothing to pay. Once a person dies, they are dead,
>> that's it."
>
>> Michael, you just stated that you don't agree that "we pay for our
>> beliefs" and in the previous sentence you said "then it'll be a
>> surprise," do you see your disconnect here? Everyone has to face
>
> Nope, I don't see any disconnect there. I stated what I believe. I  
> don't
> believe that the concept of having to pay for one's belief is true.  
> If I'm
> wrong, then I'll be surprised. But if my assumption that the sun is  
> going to
> rise in the east and set in the west every day ever turns out to be  
> wrong,
> I'll be surprised.

Maybe I'm being misunderstood. By "pay for our beliefs" I mean that  
there are consequences to our decisions both good and bad, in this  
life and from my perspective, into the next part of my life since my  
soul will not die but my physical body will.

>
>> them, just as I do. If the atheists are right, even though I believe
>> in God, and to a greater degree Jesus Christ's way of getting into
>> heaven, we both win if the atheists are right, there are no losers.
>
> Why are there winners and losers?

Because that is life. While not everything is about winning and  
losing, like eating a bowl of ice cream won't kill me, eating a large  
amounts may cause my health to go down, now I'm either wining or losing.

>
>> Christians become so emphatic, we don't want anyone to be losers, but
>
> But that implies that you and only you are right. What do you think  
> if a
> member of a different denomination comes to you and says, "you've  
> got that
> wrong, and you're going to go to hell. Let me help you, I don't  
> want you to
> be a loser?"

I have been approached and have defended myself against their errors.  
It's been against the churches that don't believe in "Once saved,  
always saved" issue.

>
>> we convict you and that's where we go wrong, and we do. A Christian's
>> purpose is to express and explain the Bible so that you understand,
>> then let God the Holy Spirit convict you of the truthfulness of the
>
> Why is that their purpose? Shouldn't a Christian tend to their own  
> spiritual
> life and leave others alone? You know, that whole "remove the beam  
> from your
> eye before attending to the splinter in your neighbor's eye?"

Oh, we all do some sort of self analysis and reflection, but then  
again, for those of you that open the door to discussions about our  
life also leads to discussions about your life. For those of you keep  
pointing out our bad behaviors may be very appropriate, but while  
ignoring where you will end up is copping out and is called  
projection, you don't want to face the facts of what you need to  
face. Am I holier that you, by no means, I'm a sinner just like you.

>
>> you, we've done what we're suppose to do, explain until you
>> understand, but then let you or anyone else decide, not push you into
>
> Doesn't that also assume that one can't understand what the bible says
> without you explaining it? Questioning someone's reading  
> comprehension?

Oh, you most certainly can and most do have some inkling, but we  
don't live in a closed society where we are not influence by others  
at some point. I was influenced by a Jewish Rabbi about my lifestyle  
when I referenced "swearing" at God. He stated "don't think just  
language, think lifestyle" as an all encompassing approach to life.

>
>> In the "how do I get to heaven" question, all religions say there is
>> a heaven but are not definitive as to how to get there and do not
>
> That's not true. There are some that either don't believe in a  
> heaven at all,
> or choose to focus on what is in this life, and leave questions of the
> afterlife for others to ponder. Buddhism and Zen Buddhism focus on
> Enlightenment in this life, for example. Daoism considers  
> everything (and
> nothing) to be part of Dao.

I stand corrected.

>
>> Christians don't believe this either. But, you do not have to do
>> ANYTHING here on earth to get into heaven, only have a trust in
>> someone else doing something FOR you. The Jewish religion is based on
>
> That doesn't make any sense, though. You could have the most evil  
> person in
> the world, then, and that person could get into heaven simply by  
> trusting
> that Jesus's sacrifice will get them into heaven.

Yes, that is technically correct, but pure evil won't because they  
already are condemned because they have already rejected Jesus Christ  
as the Only Begotten Son of God and as the Savior. But as a  
perspective, think of a killer in prison that will never see freedom  
again. He's go nothing to lose and has lost all hope and will take  
others out with his death sentence. But, as long as you and I have a  
breath to take, there is some hope, albeit in the case of evil  
people, probably none because they have rejected it so often to be  
completely gone "over to the dark side." See Mat 12:31  "Therefore I  
say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but  
blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven." Blasphemy of the  
Holy Spirit is rejection of the Holy Spirit convicting each of us of  
our need for Jesus Christ as Savior to our sinful nature. ALL OTHER  
SINS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN BY JESUS WORK ON THE CROSS!!! While as mere  
men we think of the quality of the sin, lesser ones and greater ones,  
from God's eyes a sin is a sin and no one is sinless, i.e. without  
sin. But, some are sin less, i.e. the NUMBER of sins they commit  
whether greater numbers or lesser numbers. Your sins are not the  
issue when you come face to face with your sinful nature. The penalty  
of having a sinful nature is death, but Jesus Christ paid that  
penalty with His life, it's up to you to see this, if you so choose  
to want to see it. As you have stated, you don't think you are a  
sinner, and that's your belief. But in Romans 3:23 "For all have  
sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" it stated correctly.

Kevin
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