[clue-talk] Obama, McCain, and the American flag

[Brian Gibson]

At no point did I say I condoned Ayers' action, but I'm also not so naive to believe that had the revolutionaries lost that the British would have patted them on the back, but instead would have rounded them all up, put them to trial, find them guilty of treason against the crown, and executed the lot of them.  Keep in mind not everyone believed in the revolutionaries' cause.  It was not some unanimous decision among all the citizens of the commonwealth.  There were sympathizers on both sides.

Ayers did what he believed was the right course of action for the time.  Do we, decades later, think those actions were warranted?  Not so much.  I will fault him for his methods, but I will not fault him for fighting and standing up for his beliefs.  Much like him I have no support for the Iraq war whatsoever, and even the Afghan one I have little support, but I'm not about to go bombing people to show my disdain.  (It would've been so much easier, cheaper, and less costly in lives to put out a trillion dollar bounty on Bin Laden and be done with it; payable in one lump sum or in lifetime payments.)  If Ayers continues to think he was in the right, he's more than welcome to.  It's his prerogative to do so.  We're not the thought police.  However, since those days he's gone on record to condemn terrorism, particular 9/11.  Having been a former terrorist, he would certainly have a unique take.   

And of course you're quoting what the reporter put in the interview.  Unfortunately, there's no recording of said interview so there's no way to corroborate either side's take.  Somehow "We didn't do enough" became "I wish I had bombed more".  Ayers claims to be misquoted, the reporter stands by the interview.

I think much of the objections to Ayers certainly stem from the bombings, but also from the fact that he got away with it because the prosecution and police failed to do its job.  There's no justice in that.  Because of that, people still want to hold Ayers responsible for his actions and writings over 40 years ago, irrespective of any positive influence he may have had since.  

I agree with McCain on this one, "I don’t care about an old washed-up terrorist".  However, if you want to continue on this McCarthy-like guilt-by-association track of connecting Ayers and Rev. Wright and then saying because of that Obama thinks like they do, be my guest.  McCain's got Keating, Hagee, Liddy, and of course, George W. Bush.  Palin has the Alaska Independence Party and her own church.






----- Original Message ----
From: Nate Duehr <nate at natetech.com>
To: CLUE talk <clue-talk at cluedenver.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2008 4:34:44 AM
Subject: Re: [clue-talk] Obama, McCain, and the American flag


On Nov 2, 2008, at 3:25 AM, Brian Gibson wrote:

>> I for one have no tolerance for people who bomb other people in their own country.  That's Mr. Ayers.
> 
> Yeah, damn those American Revolutionaries.


That was the cessation of an entire continent from their oppressive government, is that what you're saying Mr. Ayers was attempting to accomplish in the 60's and 70's here?  Give me a break.

Mr. Ayers bombed American citizens, and is unrepentant of that action to this day.


>> Voting in this country is a right this gun-totin' right of center
> suburbanite would pick up a gun and
>> fight for, even if I knew everyone
> I was fighting for would vote for a Liberal.
> 
> Funny how violence can be justified as long as you're on the "right" side of the issue.


This is the standard hypothetical that assumes that someone tyrannical is taking away our right to freedom of speech.  Are you saying losing that particular freedom would be not worth having violence over?

Doesn't matter, there aren't any tyrants here doing that, that I've seen.  You just wanted to use my Patriotism as a way to say I'm somehow violent, to make me look like I contradicted myself -- which is silly and untrue.  I am not shooting anyone, but Mr. Ayers has admittedly killed people.  Hello?


> Not that I condone his past actions, but the fact that he's reformed and become a productive member of society doesn't mean anything now does it?


Reformed?  In a 2005 interview he said, "I wish I had bombed more."  Sounds quite reformed.  Such a shining example of humanity, I can just barely


> If you commit a crime, somehow there is no redemption or forgiveness, even after you pay your debt to society?  (Unfortunately Ayers got off on a technicality.)  Suddenly now you are suspect (perhaps even guilty) for the associations you have?  Give me a break.  Tell me I'm wrong, but I recall a little ammendment giving people the right to peaceably assemble.  Besides McCain has his fair share of questionable associations, as I'm sure a lot of other people do as well.  It's just that its currently hip to hate on the scary terrorist man.  Guess we're all seeing brown where we once saw red.


I'm talking about the real man Ayers is, not some boogie-man "brown guy".  Ayers is a white terrorist, who applauded the assassination of a Robert Kennedy in his own writing and words by saluting Sirhan Sirhan, and Obama has a long-term relationship with him.

You try to make my innocent statement that I'd defend your right to free speech with a firearm as something evil, while you claim a man who bombed people in this country and really killed them, is worthy of "redemption or foregiveness"?   I'm sure the parents of the people he killed haven't forgiven his sick and twisted act.

Obama also gave a personal book endorsement of writings by Ayers.   Amazing.  Really amazing.

You're not going to get any apologies out of me for despising Ayers and questioning why Obama would even associate with him in any way.

Think Ayer's writings are bad?  Read Obama's wife's Master's thesis.

--
Nate Duehr
nate at natetech.com



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