[clue-talk] Obama, McCain, and the American flag

[Richard Knechtel]

Just remember in the 1700's those who started the American Revolution would 
have been considered terrorists in this day and age.... Not saying I agree 
with Ayers actions - just a plain statement of fact...

At 01:23 PM 11/2/2008, you wrote:
>At no point did I say I condoned Ayers' action, but I'm also not so naive 
>to believe that had the revolutionaries lost that the British would have 
>patted them on the back, but instead would have rounded them all up, put 
>them to trial, find them guilty of treason against the crown, and executed 
>the lot of them.  Keep in mind not everyone believed in the 
>revolutionaries' cause.  It was not some unanimous decision among all the 
>citizens of the commonwealth.  There were sympathizers on both sides. 
>Ayers did what he believed was the right course of action for the 
>time.  Do we, decades later, think those actions were warranted?  Not so 
>much.  I will fault him for his methods, but I will not fault him for 
>fighting and standing up for his beliefs.  Much like him I have no support 
>for the Iraq war whatsoever, and even the Afghan one I have little 
>support, but I'm not about to go bombing people to show my disdain.  (It 
>would've been so much easier, cheaper, and less costly in lives to put out 
>a trillion dollar bounty on Bin Laden and be done with it; payable in one 
>lump sum or in lifetime payments.)  If Ayers continues to think he was in 
>the right, he's more than welcome to.  It's his prerogative to do 
>so.  We're not the thought police.  However, since those days he's gone on 
>record to condemn terrorism, particular 9/11.  Having been a former 
>terrorist, he would certainly have a unique take.   And of course you're 
>quoting what the reporter put in the interview.  Unfortunately, there's no 
>recording of said interview so there's no way to corroborate either side's 
>take.  Somehow "We didn't do enough" became "I wish I had bombed 
>more".  Ayers claims to be misquoted, the reporter stands by the 
>interview. I think much of the objections to Ayers certainly stem from the 
>bombings, but also from the fact that he got away with it because the 
>prosecution and police failed to do its job.  There's no justice in 
>that.  Because of that, people still want to hold Ayers responsible for 
>his actions and writings over 40 years ago, irrespective of any positive 
>influence he may have had since.  I agree with McCain on this one, "I 
>don’t care about an old washed-up terrorist".  However, if you want to 
>continue on this McCarthy-like guilt-by-association track of connecting 
>Ayers and Rev. Wright and then saying because of that Obama thinks like 
>they do, be my guest.  McCain's got Keating, Hagee, Liddy, and of course, 
>George W. Bush.  Palin has the Alaska Independence Party and her own 
>church. ----- Original Message ---- From: Nate Duehr <nate at natetech.com> 
>To: CLUE talk <clue-talk at cluedenver.org> Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2008 
>4:34:44 AM Subject: Re: [clue-talk] Obama, McCain, and the American flag 
>On Nov 2, 2008, at 3:25 AM, Brian Gibson wrote: >> I for one have no 
>tolerance for people who bomb other people in their own country.  That's 
>Mr. Ayers. > > Yeah, damn those American Revolutionaries. That was the 
>cessation of an entire continent from their oppressive government, is that 
>what you're saying Mr. Ayers was attempting to accomplish in the 60's and 
>70's here?  Give me a break. Mr. Ayers bombed American citizens, and is 
>unrepentant of that action to this day. >> Voting in this country is a 
>right this gun-totin' right of center > suburbanite would pick up a gun 
>and >> fight for, even if I knew everyone > I was fighting for would vote 
>for a Liberal. > > Funny how violence can be justified as long as you're 
>on the "right" side of the issue. This is the standard hypothetical that 
>assumes that someone tyrannical is taking away our right to freedom of 
>speech.  Are you saying losing that particular freedom would be not worth 
>having violence over? Doesn't matter, there aren't any tyrants here doing 
>that, that I've seen.  You just wanted to use my Patriotism as a way to 
>say I'm somehow violent, to make me look like I contradicted myself -- 
>which is silly and untrue.  I am not shooting anyone, but Mr. Ayers has 
>admittedly killed people.  Hello? > Not that I condone his past actions, 
>but the fact that he's reformed and become a productive member of society 
>doesn't mean anything now does it? Reformed?  In a 2005 interview he said, 
>"I wish I had bombed more."  Sounds quite reformed.  Such a shining 
>example of humanity, I can just barely > If you commit a crime, somehow 
>there is no redemption or forgiveness, even after you pay your debt to 
>society?  (Unfortunately Ayers got off on a technicality.)  Suddenly now 
>you are suspect (perhaps even guilty) for the associations you have?  Give 
>me a break.  Tell me I'm wrong, but I recall a little ammendment giving 
>people the right to peaceably assemble.  Besides McCain has his fair share 
>of questionable associations, as I'm sure a lot of other people do as 
>well.  It's just that its currently hip to hate on the scary terrorist 
>man.  Guess we're all seeing brown where we once saw red. I'm talking 
>about the real man Ayers is, not some boogie-man "brown guy".  Ayers is a 
>white terrorist, who applauded the assassination of a Robert Kennedy in 
>his own writing and words by saluting Sirhan Sirhan, and Obama has a 
>long-term relationship with him. You try to make my innocent statement 
>that I'd defend your right to free speech with a firearm as something 
>evil, while you claim a man who bombed people in this country and really 
>killed them, is worthy of "redemption or foregiveness"?   I'm sure the 
>parents of the people he killed haven't forgiven his sick and twisted act. 
>Obama also gave a personal book endorsement of writings by 
>Ayers.   Amazing.  Really amazing. You're not going to get any apologies 
>out of me for despising Ayers and questioning why Obama would even 
>associate with him in any way. Think Ayer's writings are bad?  Read 
>Obama's wife's Master's thesis. -- Nate Duehr nate at natetech.com 
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