[clue-talk] Obama, McCain, and the American flag

[Brian Gibson]

Killing another is wrong period.  Whether you do it in self-defense or out of malice, for your country at the behest of some person in an oval office and the approval of legislators or in the name of some mythical dude up in the sky, to fight for rights or to suppress them... it doesn't matter what justification you give, it still does not erase the fact that killing is wrong.  However, there are conflicts where unfortunately the only action left at your disposal may be lethal violence because the opponent leaves you no choice in the matter.  Don't be so naive to believe that just because you are killing in the name of a noble cause, that it somehow makes killing a good thing, even in the case of executing a criminal who has done a heinous crime against the world.  There is a reason that violence and lethal force is the option of last resort in any conflict resolution, and the non-lethal option always trumps the lethal one.  Because a person's life is
 irreplaceable and it infringes on their right to have one.  Don't ever think that it's right to take a life.  (And Wilson, don't bother chiming in; I don't see the point in discussing when life, personhood, etc. begins because I already know your position and you're not going to change mine.)

Again, what I said was misread.  Ayers can believe that the US was wrong to fight in Vietnam.  Ayers can be a proponent of communism.  He's allowed to protest.  However, he was wrong in his methodology because, as I said above, killing is wrong.  If he still wants to uphold his beliefs today that the US was wrong to fight in Vietnam and still wants to advocate for cummunism, he has the right.  Plus it's not a crime to be unrepentant.  It makes you a poor excuse for a person, but not a criminal, just like any veteran who brags about killing his share of japs, krauts, gooks, or towelheads.  It's a good thing most veterans aren't like that and as I already pointed out, Ayers has already made public statements denouncing terrorism.

Yes, that's right, Ayers said "We didn't do enough"... enough what? "Enough bombing?" as claimed by a reporter who we trust has the jounalistic integrity to not misquote someone.  "Enough to stop the war?" as claimed by the man himself who we can only assume he's telling us the truth unless it can be proven otherwise.  So unless you're going to produce a recording of Ayers' statement, it's all speculation.

This is no more an issue than McCain's questionable associations because despite having them, like Obama, he has said or done little to reflect any influence from these people.  Seriously, give me public statements from Obama that can be considered advocating terrorism, advocating a black uprising against whitey (a little self-defeating don't you think considering he's half-white), advocating communism, saying things un-American, because frankly being American means being able to express any idea and letting the idea stand on its own merit without the fear of that idea being oppressed, challenged sure, but not oppressed.  The real garbage is this whole concept of "un-American" and "real American".  What a load of BS.  I welcome such divisive talk.  Maybe I or someone else can talk sense into you, and perhaps you'd understand that Americans are but a fraction of the world population contributing to its successes and failures, and that maybe the rest of
 the world can teach us something because we don't have all the answers.

And you still miss the fact: Ayers isn't running for President and I'd sooner see Bin Laden in the oval than him.  Yes that's an extreme exaggeration, but somehow absurdity is lost on some in this crowd.  In other words, I don't like Ayers anymore than you.  Come back and talk to me if Ayers gets a Presidential appointment, otherwise it's a non-issue.








----- Original Message ----
From: Collins Richey <crichey at gmail.com>
To: CLUE talk <clue-talk at cluedenver.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2008 2:56:29 PM
Subject: Re: [clue-talk] Obama, McCain, and the American flag

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Brian Gibson <bwg1974 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ayers did what he believed was the right course of action for the time.  Do we, decades later, think those actions were warranted?  Not so much.  I will fault him for his methods, but I will not fault him for fighting and standing up for his beliefs.  ...   If Ayers continues to think he was in the right, he's more than welcome to.  It's his prerogative to do so.  We're not the thought police.  However, since those days he's gone on record to condemn terrorism, particular 9/11.  Having been a former terrorist, he would certainly have a unique take.

I find it appalling and disgusting that you could express such an
opinion. Murdering innocent people is not the way to stand up for your
beliefs. The H man stood up for his beliefs that Jews were mud people.
That doesn't mean that any decent human being should accept such
actions.

When asked, Ayers stated that he only regretted not doing more. That's
a real condemnation of terrorism.

>... people still want to hold Ayers responsible for his actions and writings over 40 years ago, irrespective of any positive influence he may have had since.
>
> I agree with McCain on this one, "I don't care about an old washed-up terrorist".  However, if you want to continue on this McCarthy-like guilt-by-association track of connecting Ayers and Rev. Wright and then saying because of that Obama thinks like they do, be my guest.
>

OK, I will. If you spend the formative years of your young adulthood
surrounded by the likes of Bill Ayers, Rashid Khalidi, the reverend
Wright, and I forget the name of the prominent Communist/community
activist, at the very least you must have tolerance for the
un-american (yes, that's the right word) views that such people hold.
I have no time for such garbage, and Obama is the lesser for
associating with these people.

-- 
Collins Richey
     If you fill your heart with regrets of yesterday and the worries
     of tomorrow, you have no today to be thankful for.
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