[CLUE-Tech] Is this true?

[Jeffery Cann]

On Friday 26 April 2002 10:30 pm, BOF wrote:
> I'm running Netscape 6.21 and found that the menus did work, but the bar
> on which they appeared was truncated at the bottom so that only the
> first line is visible and many of the drop-down menu lines are cut off.
> Under Konquerer 2.2.2, the frame loaded, but the menus never appeared,
> and was mentioned earlier, under Netscape 4.78, the page would not load
> at all. The job that the msaa.com webmaster did is simply very sloppy.

I agree.  My point was that just because people think that the webmaster did 
not 'do his job' in our opinion is no cause to decry him / her as occurred in 
this thread.  Also, folks in this thread tried to blame Microsoft -- which 
was totally incorrect.

> Be what it may, the point needs to be kept in mind here is that a
> webmaster, in my opinion, has an obligation to insure that the site is
> accessible by all browsers --- not just specific ones. 

I couldn't agree more.  But you also must not have been a webmaster because 
you have other things to do besides worrying about browser compatability.  
Some shops (like mine) track the browser usage and base compatability testing 
as a percentage of the user's browser type.

In addition, it is likely that MSAA hired a consultant who wrote everything 
in IE.  MSAA probably did not know better and now the webmaster (probably not 
the author / consultant) is stuck without (as they stated in their 
explanation) 'resources or manhours' to make their web site compatible.

> If for some
> reason the site is written to suppport only one brand, then an honest
> webmaster should state "optimized for Brand X or whatever." 

Sure.  No problem.  In fact, I tend to avoid the ones that are 'optimized for 
IE'.

> There is no reason whatsoever to insult the readers by demeaning their 
> choice of OS or web browsers, which is what the message does.

Did we read two separate messages?

Here's the one I read:  http://www.msaa.com/updatable/mac_netscape.html

----------------------------------------------------------
Some Macintosh and most Netscape users experience problems when accessing our 
pages. This is mostly due to Netscape no longer supporting basic code used to 
run our menuing system.

In order to assist you, we have to alter all of our pages in order to make 
everything compatible. This is a long and detailed process for which we 
neither have the manhours or funds to complete. We will make the effort to 
support the various web browsers, but we do not know when that will be 
completed.

Until then, our hearts are with you. 
--------------------------------------------------------

I did not see anything that suggests I should be insulted as a Linux or Mac 
user.  They state simply that their site does not work well.  Okay.

> Unfortunately, the practice of writing only for IE seems to be coming
> more common, for I am seeing more pages that state "Optimized for IE".

So back when all of the web sites were sporting 'optimized for netscape' 
stickers were you using Lynx or NCSA and complaining?  I wasn't.  In fact, I 
thought it was 'cool' that sites were cutting edge (1997) because Netscape 
_was_ the best browser.  I do not agree with this sentiment 5 years later 
because I have personally experienced many hours of 'browser incompatibility 
problems'.

> When a site of this sort is found, then the webmaster should be called
> to account for it. 

Yes - the webmaster probably should be told.  But it is clear that they 
already know that their site is not accessible.  Given that this is a 
foundation for MS, they also state that they do not have the 'manhours or 
funds to complete' the web site fixes.

> Hopefully in a tactful way, but sometimes rudeness begets rudeness.

We agree to disagree.  I do not think they are being rude.  Maybe 
inconsiderate of non-IE browsers.  I am guessing that they got hosed by a 
disreputable client.

Also, my comments were not directed at any particular individual in this 
thread (including you, BOF).  Simply an observation that folks were 'piling 
on' a little too hard, IMHO.

Maybe folks who are upset by the MSAA can offer some consulting time and help 
fix their navigation problems?  Given the amount of effort all of us have 
spent commenting on it, we probably could have rewritten the navigation 
easily.  :-P

Maybe the development should be sponsored by CLUE?  Anyone want to suggest 
this idea to the webmaster?  This would certainly give a good opinion of 
Linux users to the MSAA folks.

Later,
Jeff

Received: from tummy.com (IDENT:5KgtntMFiwK+BCKXVQlSwmR8jD015vIc at secure.tummy.com [216.17.150.2])
	by clue.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA08304
	for <clue-tech at clue.denver.co.us>; Sat, 27 Apr 2002 00:12:10 -0600
Received: (qmail 20408 invoked by uid 10); 27 Apr 2002 06:14:00 -0000
Received: (qmail 12675 invoked by uid 500); 27 Apr 2002 06:13:58 -0000
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 00:13:58 -0600
From: Sean Reifschneider <jafo at tummy.com>
To: clue-tech at clue.denver.co.us
Subject: Re: [CLUE-Tech] Lazy person question
Message-ID: <20020427001358.G12211 at tummy.com>
References: <DAV24Mczi9yzu23LiC100000689 at hotmail.com> <1019843584.1150.47.camel at eddy> <3CC9A2C0.24DE5479 at americanisp.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i
In-Reply-To: <3CC9A2C0.24DE5479 at americanisp.net>; from anselmi at americanisp.net on Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 12:56:00PM -0600
Sender: clue-tech-admin at clue.denver.co.us
Errors-To: clue-tech-admin at clue.denver.co.us
X-BeenThere: clue-tech at clue.denver.co.us
X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta2
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: clue-tech at clue.denver.co.us
List-Id: CLUE technical discussions, questions and answers. <clue-tech.clue.denver.co.us>

On Fri, Apr 26, 2002 at 12:56:00PM -0600, David Anselmi wrote:
>So, rpm can't figure out dependencies and install in the proper order?

Yes, RPM understands dependencies.  If there are any missing dependencies,
the "rpm -U" will fail and tell you which ones are needed to fulfill them.
Also, you often want "rpm -F" instead of "rpm -U" with a whole directory
full of RPMs.  See the man-page for the difference...

If you are using KRUD, you might want to look at "krudfind" and
"krud2date".  These are tools included with KRUD that allow you to say
things like "krudfind -vi /usr/sbin/smbd" or "krudfind -vi emacs", and it
will track down what packages provide those functions, and what other
dependencies are needed to install them.  krud2date does a similar
function, but for updating the packages already installed on your system...

Sean
-- 
 Linux: The Official Operating System of the Internet.
Sean Reifschneider, Inimitably Superfluous <jafo at tummy.com>
tummy.com - Linux Consulting since 1995. Qmail, KRUD, Firewalls, Python